Jonas: The year is already done, it feels. So I'm trying to figure out how everything is supposed to fit in these last two months. I'm working this season until December, shooting editorials and commercials. I'm taking time off in spring because I'm developing a new personal project.

Mo: What approach are you taking with this upcoming project?  

Jonas: This personal project is going to be film based. I want to push into a more narrative form in my film work, and to also experiment with how I approach a more narrative structure. I’m still really intrigued by the way it's presented, [though]. 

Jonas: On some of the motion work, I could bring in my photography but I still feel like I'm trying to bring in the balance a little bit back to photography, which is why I'm going back into shooting editorial this season—after all, I started as a photographer. The plan is to have a new film and my first photographic book by mid next year.

Mo: You mentioned having an experimental approach, which I believe requires trusting your voice. So what gave you that confidence to trust this approach?

Jonas: I think it was a logical process. After I finished studying, I literally segwayed into commercial work straight away because I had always been working alongside my studies. That was great because I got a lot of experience very quickly. I learned how to navigate a more commercial field because I was still doing projects that were more free and editorial in nature for platforms like Nowness. 

Jonas: In combination with the commercial work, for a moment there was always a framework; there was always somebody telling me what they wanted to do and [see] what I could do with that. When that had been going on for a while, there came that point that I felt, sure, that's going great, but what other things are piling up in my head that I don't have the right framework for? What are the things that don't fit into what I'm doing? I had to take a bolder step into doing something myself that I didn't have the platform for. The fact that I was working financially helped me reinvest into my own work. The result of that was Truth or Dare which was this film installation I presented.

Jonas: That was a big risk at the time. I had the urge of doing it but I didn't know what it was going to lead to. The way that project worked justified itself to that way of working. It allowed me to formulate my ideas in a more singular and direct way. So that gave me the confidence to continue working like that.

Mo: What were some of the most challenging parts about Truth or Dare that you didn't expect until it was in first gear?

Jonas: I think it's the classic thing of being out of your comfort zone. I feel like looking for that moment when you feel slightly out of your comfort zone is mostly just right, likewise for commercial work. There's a good reason to push that in ways where you have to trust that certain instinct in yourself. A lot of it is trusting your gut. You're going with that feeling that this is something I want to do, and that's a big step. It's also a big risk that makes you vulnerable because you're putting those ideas out and you don't know how people are going to react. Whereas if its a commercial or editorial assignment, you're always under the umbrella of something particular.

Jonas: I remember putting up that exhibition in Berlin wondering how many people will show. Are people going to actually show up? How's the response going to be? Really, up until the last moment, even though I felt confident with the work, I didn't know how people were going to react. The success of the project gave me a certain confidence to realize there's strength in pursuing these radical ideas for yourself. This very elemental feel of going with your gut is much harder than it sounds, I think.

Mo: How do you feel like your photography informs the motion work? Is there a yin and yang there?

Jonas: The way my brain worked for a long time was very photographically and I think to an extent it still does. That was a hard part figuring out at the beginning—when I was moving into film—to ask how they differ. You feel like they might be quite similar because both involve looking through a camera and framing something. However, the first thing you notice is that ideas that are photographic don't necessarily work in a film and vice versa.

Jonas: For me, especially with Truth or Dare and the projects after that, like the Kendrick Lamar video, those projects let me really push that idea. How can my photographic visual approach come to a film and give these frames more meaning? What's the benefit of seeing these frames in motion? How can they share a narrative or a short glimpse of emotion in a way that maybe a photograph can't? I think that was quite interesting for me to explore.

Jonas: On the contrary, the way I have to work with film is also informing the way I work photographically these days. For a long time, photography, to me, was quite intuitive. I'd set a loose framework but then go somewhere where I could chase a feeling or a loose narrative. I kind of improvised as well, which is the beauty of photography; you don't need that much prep. You can trust the flexibility of the moment to let you react to things as they unfold in front of you.

Jonas: Filmmaking just naturally involves a bit more thought in the process. It involves figuring out what's actually supposed to happen in these scenes. There is a way you can also work quite spontaneously but the way I approach it is that I like to think out these projects before I start them.

Jonas: For example, Truth or Dare was completely sketched out before it happened. And that was interesting because my approach for every project that comes in now is the same. It starts with me putting down the outline on a blank note in my computer. The idea and structure comes first. Then, when you go into these projects, there's sort of enough room to improvise. I think the better you're prepared the easier it is to let stuff go. But it's interesting how my filmic work and what I learned from working with films has informed my process throughout.

Jonas: The way how I approach a photographic story right now is much more based on a narrative. I’ve done photographic stories that have a certain feeling or cinematic quality to them that I think is a bit newer. But I was interested in the thought of, "When does a photograph feel filmic?" and, "When does a film feel photographic?" I think there's directors who are much more driven by the continuity, whereas to me the singular image is always important. The way I work with a DOP on a film is quite meticulous in the sense that I have a really clear meaning to what the frame should look like.

Mo: Were these ideas presented to you in some shape or form when you were in university, or when you just got into the thick of it all?

Jonas: A bit of both, I think. It's quite hard to pin down what exactly university taught you, in my experience. It's so much more influenced by your surroundings, the people you grew up with, and by the experiences you make. The university, for me, was always more a framework to develop my work. But having said that, here in Berlin at The University of the Arts, I studied a more interdisciplinary course which wasn't just photography or filmmaking. It was a visual studies where you could kind of dip in and out of the different disciplines. I learned my approach to typography and graphic design while also learning photography, layouts and film. I didn't categorize that much. I was just looking for the right format for the right idea.

Jonas: I've seen projects more wholeheartedly, too. It's sort of about all the elements that make a project, be it photography turning into a layout or a book, or film turning into an actual film with sound and a title. All these elements that are a part of it are always connected to me. That's something my studies incorporated, but everything else I just said was shaped over the years. It was shaped over finding my voice, and I think that's something that never stops. You continue to experiment with your voice hopefully throughout [your work].

Mo: I want to press rewind and talk about what your friends and family thought about you getting into this practice.

Jonas: Throughout my childhood and adolescence I skateboarded which I always had a visual approach to. I was always the guy taking pictures and videos or making a fanzine or website. That was how it all started. I had an affinity to the visual side of it very early on. It initially started through skateboarding and the scene that comes with it and all the skate videos and magazines back then. Everybody kind of noticed that I was quite interested in that field at a very early age and my family was supportive of it. That was a big win coming from a tiny countryside town in Germany where something like that isn't common, so I think it helps if a career like this isn't immediately met with complete misunderstanding but more of a, "Why not?"

Mo: What do you feel has been the hardest thing to maintain throughout your career?

Jonas: I think not getting too lazy is one thing. Inside of you, you usually know what you want and what you don't want, and when to say “yes” and when to say “no”. I think saying no and consciously deciding which projects excite you and what path you really want to stay on is, in a way, the hardest part, or really, the most important part. The only way to do this long term is to follow that vision from within yourself and not get carried away with whatever gets thrown at you. Commercial assignments and all these things add up, and there's a lot of interesting things in that, but I think it's about filtering the right things and not getting carried away with the money involved. Remind yourself that, that gut feeling is usually right. For me, so far so good. [both laughing]

Mo: How do you give yourself the space to direct yourself through that?

Jonas: Sometimes there isn't and sometimes there is—it's both fair game. It can be really exciting to see where commercial work takes you. For example, this year when I did the Calvin Klein campaign, it felt like a really exciting project where it was something that felt like the next step for me visually and it was connected to a commercial project. 

Jonas: But then again, I think it's just knowing when you need a break. I’ve noticed that, especially with working so much back-to-back, your brain can cope with the immediate necessities of these projects but not necessarily keep the focus on the larger thoughts, the more personal thoughts. And for that, I feel that I have to put myself into a certain environment from time to time, which means not working, not travelling, being at home in the studio, and having that time with myself to figure out the next steps because that's when those decisions happen.

Jonas: I think it's really important to keep that balance between the workflow and the break from that workflow. Essentially, they should influence each other. It's almost like waves, you know. It's really exciting to get into these projects, have all these influences come at you, and collaborate with new people, but also find moments to step back and find time for yourself. 

Mo: What does that time by yourself look like?

Jonas: It really just connects to being home. Being in Berlin, which has been my home for 10 years, has been a source of calmness; it's also a source of inspiration. I like it because it's more like a blank slate for me. I think inspiration comes from everywhere, so Berlin works for me because I get to travel to a lot of different places than Berlin, but ultimately, here, the quietness makes it feel like a productive environment to work.

Jonas: What I’ve also noticed is that it takes time. When I arrive back, I'm exhausted for a couple of days and don't want to make anything but after a couple of days my brain starts naturally working again. One of my teachers once told me that your brain does the most when you're bored, and I kind of agree to that extent. You almost have to bring yourself to a mode of being slightly bored and relaxed so your brain goes, okay, now I'm bored. Let me think about what I can actually do. I've just found after a few years, that shift in pace is important to me.

Mo: If you're constantly accelerating then you don't have the capacity to maneuver as quickly.

Jonas: There's this famous media theory by Paul Virilio where the more you accelerate at some point it comes to a standstill. At some point, indefinitely speeding up just also leads to not moving at all. I think that's important to keep in mind.

Mo: It's obvious but you can't rush it.

Jonas: The problem is that more and more everything around you is only giving you the single impulse that you have to rush everything; everything has to happen now and fast. Finding this moment and pursuing an artistic practice these days is about going against the grain of the speed of everything; of media, of social media; of this constant mode of production and feeding the machine. I think it's really important to disconnect from that and figure out your own way. This rush around us makes it much harder to focus on that, so disconnecting from that time to time lets you truly know where your heading, not where everybody else is heading. 

Mo: Was that examination found through Truth or Dare ?

Jonas: For sure. Truth or Dare is like a mood. It's a vibe that I tried to capture, and it's also me looking into myself—into feelings that you have in this world, whether it be feelings of joy, anxiety, or ecstasy. In one sense it's introspective, but at the same time, it's an observation of feelings around me. What does the world around me feel like? If you try to elevate that visually—if you try to iconize it—then what would that look like?

Mo: Do you feel like that feeling is still the same or has it changed?

Jonas: I think it's still quite relevant. Though, I do I think it's not something my work is ultimately only centered around. It's been an interesting alley to explore, but at the moment what I'm trying to figure out is a much more singular perspective on storytelling. Like, there's not 25 different things but there's one thing that I want to focus on.

Jonas: But to be honest, you're always trying to encapsulate a certain observation on reality in your work in the best sense. It always informs the work but not to an extent where work I do has to be about that—it doesn't have to always be analytical. I'm still very aware of my surroundings and what's happening in reality and society. I think those are very important factors for any work I'm doing because all my work is centered around involving people and their stories, so that naturally connects me to society and the times we live in.

Mo: What interests you the most about people's stories? Actually, I'll add in, “one of the most,” because there's so many elements of interest, right?

Jonas: [laughing] Yeah, that's probably the appeal. A person's story can be a vehicle for anything. If you look at any feature film it's just stories of people; stories of people's lives. Even though that's always the same framework you're working in, it offers you a million different ways to express a feeling, an observation, or a point in time through the lens of an individual which is what we all connect to. There's not even a reason to answer that question because it almost feels so elemental to me. It's almost the basis of everything. It's a given in a sense, you know what I mean?

Mo: Of course. Earlier, you were talking about working towards singularity in narratives. Do you mind expanding on that?

Jonas: The thought process for the next step in my work was looking back at what I've done so far. I almost always felt that even though the work had a very precise idea, execution and meaning behind it. How it was built up was always in these multitude of fragments that together formed a picture, an emotion, a narrative, or some type of poetic quality. With Truth or Dare there was a new person in every scene so what's the flipside to that? The flipside to that is maybe deciding on one person and maybe still having the ability through the lens of that to tell a multitude of observations in one world.

Mo: Did your music video for Peggy support any of those thoughts?

Jonas: It's kind of a hybrid of that, so yes. It sort of reduces the amount of different elements but it's more so a couple of storylines woven together that have a bit of a narrative that unfolds even though it's abstract. All these different fragments contrast each other but I think the way those fragments work has changed a little bit. 

Jonas: It's a bit different, too, because the video with Peggy was also so focused on the most classic approach to a music video which is performance—I had never done that before. The track is so danceable that it almost felt like any other approach would've felt wrong. We wanted to find an approach through dance which informed a bit more of a linear narrative structure for these storylines just because we wanted to see the performance unfold. 

Mo: While closely working together on this project, were there any things you were worried about that she comforted you about and vice versa?

Jonas: Yeah, it was very nice in a way because it was quite seamless. Working with somebody you're also in a relationship can have it's points of conflict, which we knew could happen, but there weren't any which was really nice. A lot of music videos are not that seamless; they're not that one goal for both [parties]. And I think the best way is when it happens like that. She brought her elements to it and I brought mine, but neither of us tried to diminish these elements, rather we brought in our strengths uncompromisingly. It amplified it really nicely but I think it was based on trust which went both ways. 

Jonas: Obviously it's a music video so it's kind of my terrain but she had a very strong vision on things and has been throughout. I wrote the concept and script for the music video and by her looking at it through a very different perspective, it gave me really good thoughts for certain moments. By us knowing each other so well it actually worked quite well. We were lucky to have a production partner with Apple that really let that unfold. There wasn’t a layer of, “You guys need to this and this.” Them letting things unfold was quite unique in the way it happened.

Mo: I don't usually get to explore the balance of creative collaboration in a relationship, so I'm curious to know how you guys find a balance where you're not talking about treatments at dinner.

Jonas: It's quite fluid because in both of our lives work and everything else just naturally flows into each other, and I think that's a nice thing. It's a lot about having another opinion you can trust. Both of us being able to relate to the others world and giving it a different point of view is helpful. But I think in terms of finding the right balance, she does her own thing and I mostly do my own thing, but then it's really nice if an opportunity comes along where maybe she's scoring a piece of film I did or me shooting her for some project she does. It's just when they naturally appear, we both think about each other and see if that could be an interesting thing to do. It feels very natural.

Mo: It brings me back to what we were talking about earlier—that space for things to breath.

Jonas: Exactly! I think sometimes having somebody this close to you—even though we do different things—there's an understanding we have for each others world and sometimes have a reality check, or somebody that will tell you something nobody else would. That's worth a lot. And at the same time, we both are each others most important element in getting a break from it—to not be thinking about work all the time.

Mo: What feelings have stirred around 2019 compared to previous years?

Jonas: It was definitely a wild year. By now I'm at 250 travel days. In a sense I almost feel like I sometimes have more linear years and more years where you take a step forward. And it felt like more of a year where I took a step forward. The year before 2018 was great too, but felt more like a natural continuation of what I achieved the year before, with projects like Kendrick.

Jonas: 2018 was more of riding the wave of that and evolving. But starting this year with Calvin Klein felt like an interesting commercial assignment of a scale that I haven't had before. However, it's interesting because Calvin Klein was both. It was one of the biggest and one of the most personal commercial projects I've ever done, and in that sense it felt like a really big step because it felt like bringing your very own unfiltered vision to such a large scale audience. That was something I've been pushing for, for a while.

Jonas: I think also working on another music video always feels like a huge challenge because I don't do a million music videos a year. I do one, if even. I think they're the type of projects where you want to see that you're evolving. I think those two projects made 2019 feel like a bigger year. But I think that's also why now I'm at a point where I'm at a point of taking a step back and figure out what the next proper step is. The year before, I didn't have that urge.

Mo: I feel like that's fueled by a certain capacity of being self aware. Do you feel like you're self aware?

Jonas: I think I could be better. The way I say it now sounds like, yeah, sure, it's super logical but I have been saying that I want to take a break for a while now. It's never as seamless and perfect as you make it sound but like what we said before, that's one of the challenges, you know? It's definitely an ongoing learning process. Sometimes you're like, "Now I'm going to take a break," but then something exciting pops up and it's like, “Fuck, I want to do this!”

Mo: What worries you in either the photographic or filmic landscape?

Jonas: Not enough trust into taking risks. The way people work today is that they like to blend out the thought that you can control everything about a film or a photograph—you can't. It's always going to be a product of chance, luck, mistakes and everything. I think a lot of people try to make it feel like it's not by trying to research everything and market test everything. I think because a lot of people are talented that still leads to really good results, but in my experience the best things sometimes also just happen when you trust the process.

Jonas: I think the best pieces of work have always been because people have taken risks. They've done something where people said, "Oh, that's not going to work," or, "That's never going to sell." It brings me back to making decisions with your gut, and wanting to do something because you believe in that and it feels right.

Mo: Inversely, what excites you in relation to the previous question?

Jonas: Seeing something where you're in this world and wonder how could you take a new photograph or film. And then you see something that completely blows you away and you go, "Okay, that's the way to do it." There's always a way to figure out a new way and I think that's what excites me. You're chasing these moments and you realize how fleeting and small and fragile these moments are. It's about becoming not too numb to that aspect.

Jonas: What's even better is if a moment unfolds and you manage to grasp it and it tells you something new since you had the intuition to follow it. You're almost chasing that on every shoot, but the more and more I work, I've noticed that, that is not at all a given thing. You're not always lucky with that.